| Archive for The Potting Shed A forum to discuss Crafts, Cooking, Gardening, Countryside, Livestock and Pets |
| stickywellies |
Are supermarkets a good thing?We all use supermarkets, they are convenient, they have a huge selection.You can buy strawberries for Christmas or Sprouts in the summer, delivered in from Kenya, think of the food miles there. Tesco sell really good jeans for about 2p, or you can buy some Vicky Beckams for about £250. 
I really love the local farmers market of meat, veg and cheeses, but I trend to use them only when I want to make a special effort. On balance I have to say yes they are, but then again...... 
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| redwillowrose |
we have a farmers market once a week, but i find it very expensive, there are bakers there charging £2 for a loaf of bread ! I dont go to Tescos very often, I tend to go to Lidl or Iceland. I aslo use the farm shop near to where my parents live. They have a very good selection.
Lyn |
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| Leonie2 |
Supermarkets are a good thing because they're convenient, but I think we've allowed them to get too big and powerful. I'd much rather shop at my local farm shop where the staff know my name, we have a chat whilst at the checkout, there is very rarely a queue. The other day the lady who works there was telling me that my husband had been in earlier and she passed a message on to me from him.....when would that ever happen at somewhere like Tesco?! I can see the meat I will be buying in the future running around and growing in the fields outside, if something is available locally then that is what's stocked, if it's not available locally then it is sourced from further afield, but local is always put first as a priority. 
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| muntjac |
i wouldnt give vick beckham room in a bomb shelter along with all those other stupid females who value thier look more than life and that goes for the pathetic
" femen " types thier "look at me "attitude has added more pain to kids lives than ever , as for supermarkets ,im afraid its a fact of life the big boys will always bully the little ones . i dont buy newspaper because of the get the story attitude that they will do anything for .the case now of them chasing wiliams gf is a prime reason .if we refused to buy the papers until they stop doing it ,they would soon stop printing the stuff,, i am afraid sticky its a case of what people want |
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| Kathy |
I agree with Leonie, they've become too big. We have 9 assorted shops in our village from wee corner shops to the bigger minimarket type thing. Tescos applied for permission to build an"Express" directly opposite a mini market that has served the local community for years. Despite petitions, opposition from local councillors, planning rules etc, up it went in about 3 weeks, backhanders or what. 
If I have to use a supermarket I try to use either a local one or the Co-op. The "big boys" tell us how to live our lives and are very astute at directing us down certain lines so we can line their pockets. Of course, people will do whats cheapest and most convenient, we've all been getting trained that way. Low wages, high mortgages, and we just allow it to go on and on and on............................. Sorry  , I don't like what I see in the "bigger picture".
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| mrutty |
Totally illegal and won't have happened. Having done planning submissions for big companies it's normally the other way round. The local area ask for 'extra' things to be built in exchange for planning permission which is refused as it's illegal. Very few things you can block a planning application with. Remember 'local' rules designed to keep certain types of shops out are illegal but drawn up by councillors as lip service.
Supermarkets pay well over minimum wage. On an 'average' shop they make only a few pennies profit (in the case of Tesco they make a few thausand per perm member of staff per year). Most of their money is now generated by anything other than the store (Banking was a massive profit boast and put them at number one afetr a 30 year fight to get there). Tesco is of course famous for pointing out where other companies are really ripping people off. Designer trainers anyone? |
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| mrutty |
But it was supermarkets that got us minimum space standards for birds and have been pushing the minimum meat standard higher and higher in this country. Compare that to the token effort of say the RSPCA and supermarkets been a better life for the greatest number of animals. Of course the supermarkets are now pushing this standard higher and higher whilst the RSCPA one has remained static with very few takers. |
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| agapanthus |
Farm shops are ok...if you can afford to shop there. But again a lot of them are just in it for the money. A local farm shop in this area (very famous..been on telly...had about 3 series run) sells sourdough bread for £3.15!!!!! Sausages work out about £1 each purporting to be from a rare breed stock...(he was seen by a friend of mine buying screwy old pigs at the local pig sale!!!! | ||||||
| TheGirlsMum |
Yes Agapanthus its not many "real" farmers who live their lives with a film crew in tow.
I find most farm shops expenive and tend to buy from the farmers door step it is better for me. But I know I am very lucky to be able to do that.
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| n |
After various attempts to avoid supermarkets, we have decided to take the middle way and use the Co-op instead. The prices are higher than tesco/Asda, but ethically we are happier with the co-operative movement. The choice is not as wide, but that may not be a bad thing. They always have seasonal vegetables, and the essentials. We use a wholefood shop for rice/lentils/flour etc and the farmers market for meat.
n |
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| Leonie2 |
I still think we've allowed them to get too big and too powerful. I'm not saying supermarkets are a bad thing, but I don't think they are a good thing the way they are, I don't think it's good for any company to be too big and driven by shareholders looking for higher profits. If I have the choice to buy from a smaller, independent business (any business, not just supermarkets) at a price I can afford then that's where I buy from. |
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| mrutty |
This is the flipside. How do you now your 'local' pork is quality? Most small producers aren't double rousetted or Organic. It's a bit easier for me as my kids name the pigs from my soon to be very local producer but I still have to trust he when I'm not around to take care of them. As Sean on DS said the turkeys could have been fed anything. It comes down to if you can really trust the local guy then go for it, but rememeber that he/she wants to make money and in many cases local butchers are no better than a superamrket one and in too many cases much worse. |
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| Becki |
Do we need this in the soapbox section? | ||||||
| Kathy |
I thought you might pop in this thread Mark!
You would really need to be here to see the corruption, and anyone who thinks it doesn't go on is being a tad naive (IMHO). Yes, they push for quality, make big noises about it too but as you say, everyone is in it for the money, small and large alike. There is a worldwide sickness of materialism, not many people REALLY care about the larger spiritual (NOT religious) picture. "I'm too busy trying to make a buck/get enough money to buy new curtains/get enough money to........."and so it goes on. Everyone has their own perceptions and all are equally valid to them, (if you know what I mean), I just get disheartened by the sickness and madness I see around. What on earth happened that people will pay half a million pounds for a box with partitions, it's beyond me.
No easy answers anywhere, we just have to deal with our own lives and do what we think is best (again, IMHO) 
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| Becki |
I knew he would too  I will keep an eye on him.
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| Kathy |
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| Leonie2 |
moving to the soapbox!
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| Haize |
Supermarkets have their place: mostly within cities and large towns, where you would need a set of small shops every few streets if you didn't have one large shop per wider area. Now many people think it is bad that the small shops have been killed off by the supermarkets, but now the residents of these high density areas have a far wider choice of produce than could possibly have been brought to them by multiple shops repeating the milk, bread, and other basics sections.
Also, if I go to my local health-food/ethical stuff shop (in the city centre), I have the privelege of paying considerably more for a new bottle of Ecover washing liquid as if I bought it at Sainsbury's. I doubt Sainsbury's transportation of goods from Belgium(?) to their shop is any less efficiently done, so I'm failing to see how it is less ethical for me to buy it from them than from the small shop. Also, Supermarkets have the buying power to actually improve things like use of local ingredients, if the customers demonstrate that this is what they want. People may feign ignorance about the shady origin of the ridiculously cheap things, but many simply don't care. The biggest problem I have with supermarkets is when they make a monopoly in an area: Stroud has 5 Tescos of varying sizes: one big one, and a few convenience store type ones. There is no Co-op, or any other supermarket. This was allowed why? There are supposed to be rules against monopoly, but as the convenience stores are classed as a totally different type of shop, this has been allowed by the authorities. |
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| redwillowrose |
The farm shop I went to is actually right on the farm. and I didn`t find their prices too high. I bought a whole breast of lamb for £ 1.99.
sacks of potatoes were £6. Lyn |
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| mrutty |
Corruption tends to come from the local planners. Ask yourself would you as a multi million company honestly risk every application being refered to the Sec of State by even suggesting backhanders. It just does not happen. Clearly if you think it has in this case a single call to the office of Sec of State will sort that problem out. Most applications are rejected by the local concillors which have very limited knowledge of the planning reqs. When the planners look at it they point out that yes we can object but the Sec of State is likely to find in the public interest and grant permission anyway (this is a shorten version of the Tesco depot at Westbury, Southhampton and Vodafone HQ Newbury). My own view is that it is wrong for the local MP etc to lie through their teeth and give false hope that the applications can be blocked or that they are trying to get 'extra' facilities for the local area. (By the way as always very interested in the grounds for objections).
Oh yes totally agree. Also the 'I've seen the world now lets kill air travel' or 'I'm OK it's the rest of you that are wrong', etc [quote="Kathy"]Everyone has their own perceptions and all are equally valid to them, (if you know what I mean), I just get disheartened by the sickness and madness I see around. What on earth happened that people will pay half a million pounds for a box with partitions, it's beyond me. /quote]
Tesco could never understand why ready meals were such a success but the customers wants them so they stock them. Remember that Tesco pushed health eating in the 90s but no one was interested (well I was as I was doing Home Ecc at the time and need to pass the exams).
Yes, ask people to sell you cr*p and they will, ask for quality and they will. |
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| mrutty |
If anyone studies distrubution networks then Tesco is the shining example. In the 70s and 80s they stripped their network to the bone (I know my father was there) and made it the most efficent in the UK. They still push this on a daily basis. Most of the 'cost savings' you see in store is because of this work. Fuel is the biggest way for them to save and therefore make money. Sainsbury started this in the very later 90s when B was working there and are still making changes to try and make savings. As rememeber small shops in the main won't have a full deleivery. Supermarkets have a lorry load of goods every time. I'm not knocking small shops here but small shops need to rise the challenge and offer value added services and services that supermarkets just can't match. Also small businesses need to look at supermarkets and think branding, image, service. |
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| stickywellies |
I think I'm right in saying that £1 in every £8 spent in the UK ,is spent with Tesco, I don't care, as long as they stay the shoppers champion then I have no problem. It's up to us to use them for the everyday items like bog rolls and Aussy Wine (hic! oop sorry) but we should all remember the farmers for local produce, with more turnover they will be able to reduce their prices and we all win 
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| Leonie2 |
I buy my wine from a local producer, they're a little more expensive but then I just drink less. | ||||||
| mrutty |
Yes and No The price quoted was worked out against the national grocery spend and then how much Tesco's turn over was. Now given this included insurance, investments (Tesco has a huge land bank that it has sold for housing, etc), banking etc it's not quite true but it makes a great tagline with which to beat them up with. |
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| Haize |
About the planning side of things: Tesco has on multiple occasions applied for permission for a store, then built that larger than was agreed. They then apply retrospectively for permission for the larger footprint, and in all cases this has been accepted eventually.
I know lots of individuals have done similar things plenty of times, but it is still wrong. |
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| mrutty |
They almost always put down footings for dual storey and all the 'designs' are modulator enough to add or remove large elements ie an four more aisles to the side of the store and a second floor is always planned in rom day one.. Retrospective planning permission is very rarely refused to anyone, worth a gamble if you can afford it. |
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| redwillowrose |
I do use the smaller shops where we live aswell, we have one shop that sells everything from everywhere.
Lyn |
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| Jamanda |
We stopped Tesco putting a huge store in our little town. They only wanted to knock down the swimming pool, kid's playground and skate park, the football pitch and a community garden. I hate them.
We have two butchers, three greengrocers, two bakers, a bookshop, a hardware store, a deli, and lots of other nice little shops. They sell just about everything we need. I go to a supermarket (NEVER Tesco) about once every two months, and frankly it's getting less and less often. |
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| redwillowrose |
I`m so glad nothing was done to that beautiful garden ! I loved it when we went there. It was really special. I loved the town also.
Heres a photo of the garden [img] 
[/img] |
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| mrutty |
Have to say I didn't read all of Sean's stuff on DS. Did you defeat them or do they still have the Sec of State option? Be interesting to see how quickly you now get an out of town centre. |
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| Jamanda |
They withdrew the plans, then re-applied for a slightly smaller (but still enormous) store. That application was comprehensively rejected by the planning committee on lots of different grounds. They have 6 months from the rejection to appeal, but hopefully, the rejection was based on so many different things they won't bother. They gave permission for a small Somerfields on a different site. I don't think that's necessary, but I can live with it and will use it occasionaly. |
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| mrutty |
IMHO don't hold your breath. It's normal to wait a while before the appeal so that you can 'take into account local concerns'. | ||||||
| Jamanda |
Don't be so darn negative! The reasons for the turn down weren't woolly touchy feely ones, they were good legal points - like the land not actually being available because there are covenants on it. |
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| mrutty |
Totally same situation as Voda HQ as that got built anyway.
Just making sure you don't lose focus as there is long way to go yet. |
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| Jamanda |
Oh don't worry - they won't sneak past with out being noticed! |
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| Kathy |
To answer the original question..........No I don't think they are, but not for the reasons that most people would think!
Yes, man/womankind will most certainly get what they ask for.................... |
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| Aqui |
It's getting harder and harder to avoid shopping at supermarkets in my area. There are no longer any green groccers, bakers etc for miles around. There are a sainsburys and tecos right across the road from each other in the nearest high street (would've been the next village along when there were such things in greater london!)
We are lucky to have a co-op about 3 mins walk away - I much prefer to shop there, but it is more expensive and there is less choice. We get all our veg delivered in the organic box. More expensive, but much nicer. I hate buying imported stuff. Our "local" farm shop actually doesn't grow/produce anything it sells. It's all imported. But it is much much cheaper than the supermarkets and does have a good selection of fruit, veg and cupboard things. But the opening times and (now) walk make it too difficult for me to go there regularly. So unfortunately we are now forced to get the majority of our food delivered from the supermarket. It's convenience that wins at the moment - I'd have to go after work every day to pick up everything we needed, as I can hardly carry anything. T works later than me, so he can't really go after work. And we HATE going there at the weekends. I try to buy organic, fairtrade etc. Apples - I pick british ones and bananas are fairtrade. |
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| Lizzie |
I buy fruit and vegetables at the Saturday market in our town, and any meat I buy (which isn't a lot as it's only OH that eats it) comes from the monthly farmers market.
However, general day to day stuff like loo roll, milk, tins of beans etc. come from a supermarket and I don't suppose that's going to change - it's the convenience and price factors that do it for me. I could spend half my day going from shop to shop to get all the necessaries if (a) I didn't work all day, (b) I could afford 'local' prices and (c) there were local shops that sold these sorts of basics - none of these is the case. As is it, I wish Tesco WOULD build a shop in our town. We have one small-ish Morrisons and it's a disgrace. It's badly stocked (almost all own-brand stuff and no choice) and they charge more in our town than they do in their store 20 miles down the road, because they have NO competition - there are two tiny Co-op stores in town but one of them is always filthy and the other is just a corner shop really. Because I hate it so much, I do a 75 mile round trip to our nearest Tesco once a month to stock up on supermarket stuff and it still works out cheaper than shopping in Morrisons, even with the cost of the petrol (which is usually 6-7p a litre cheaper at Tesco than in our local petrol stations, for the same reason - no competition). I don't like it, but I don't feel I have a choice - for instance, we drink earl grey tea, we like Twinings best and we prefer leaf tea to teabags (I know, I know - we're picky!) - in a town of maybe 10,000 souls, there isn't one single shop that sells the tea we like. This is getting away from the original question to which my answer would be, supermarkets could be a good thing - they have huge buying power etc. - but it's up to us the consumers to demand that they use their power as we would like i.e. we have to buy the properly-sourced and ethical products and leave the cr*p in the shop. Ultimately, any shop is only going to stock what it knows it can sell. |
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| mrutty |
When they do stock so goods they find that people don't really buy them which is why fair trade products are being reduced across the board. |
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| Lizzie |
...which is why I said it was up to us the consumers to create the demand for the 'right' products... | ||||||
| mrutty |
I know I was just giving an example of where they'd tried and poeple weren't interested. |
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| mrutty |
Are they good?
Yes They employ thousands of women with flexiable school hours for much more than minimum wage. Jobs that are not available in 'local' shops. They have flexed their opening times to meet the new world we live in. They have helped lots of good farmers make a success of their farms. They have improved the minimum standard of our food standards why past the old ways of doing things. They have high lighted the grey goods areas where as a nation we are being ripped off. |
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| lloyd |
EH? AND ON TOP OF THAT THEY CONTINUALLY ERODE FAMILY STANDARDS BY MAKING US ALL INTO MACRO CONSUMERS BY OPENING ON BANK HOLIDAYS TO ENTICE US WITH GOOD DEALS ON CRAPPY STOCK THAT WE WILL WANT A REFUND FOR A WEEK LATER, TO BOOST SALES TARGETS, WITH THE LIKE S OF YOU AND I BEING FORCED TO WORK THOSE DAYS OR LATE NIGHTS ON PAIN OF A DISCIPLINARY MEASURE............................... RANT OR WHAT????..........................I FEEL QUITE PROUD!
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| Becki |
And here was me going to keep out of this one
The one point I am going to disagree with is that they are destroying family values. They are not doing this, the peiople who shop there 24hrs a day do this. They obviously are not concerned with their family when they are dragging a screaming 2 yr old round Asda at 10pm when it should be it bed. I know I've sat there on a till and watched it. Lets face it Tesco/Sainsbury/Asda whoever are primarily businesses who are there to make a profit, and if people buy silly things and shop at silly hours they are going to continue to sell/open. They are doing what they do best and make money. It's not them that need to be educated it's us as a nation. Unfortunately the people who care about values/food miles fairtrade etc are a vast minority and unless more people vote with their feet then supermarkets are not going to change. And I for one are very glad they employed this part time Mother. |
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| Kathy |
Well said Becki, put it into words better than I could!
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| Haize |
I disagree with the family values bit too: I think my OH and I has a far less stressful, and therefore less detrimental to our marriage, pre-Christmas shop at 10:30 in the evening.
It was relatively quiet and calm, and there were so many staff re-stocking the shelves ready for the madness of "normal" hour shopping the next day that I had people to ask every time I couldn't find something.
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| mrutty |
Farmers that have done well include The Black Farmer and the Devon Ice cream farm (can't remember the name but they only sell to Sainsbury as their choice). Both have looked into the deals very carefully and not just been blinded by money. Many good business call and then followed through whilst also keeping and expanding other markets. | ||||||
| lloyd |
With the rise and rise of the large retail organisations, we have seen a parrallel reduction in high street local industry such as the butcher, fishmonger, haberdasher, bakery, tailor, etc. These all cannot compete against the bulk buying import power of the large chains leading to their being replaced by purveyors of foreign foods as against local produce. Outsourcing of labour as well as very cheap products by these organisations to other countries, also has a double negative impact on the British economy. | ||||||
| Bovey Belle |
Yet in our town (Carmarthen) such individual traders have been forced out of the town by the exhorbitant rates imposed by the Council, so it's not just the big supermarkets at fault. I try and buy what I can from individual shops, but unless everyone is of a like mind, I can't save them single-handedly. What annoys me about the likes of Tesco is the BOGOF offers, which apparently are funded not by Tesco's generosity, but by the provider of the goods and so now when my hand reaches for the two packs of cheese, for instance, I feel rather guilty that the manufacturer is over Tesco's barrel. . . Sadly in our household, it's needs must - I have to shop where I can afford to and cut my coat according to my cloth. I can only spend my money once.
As for eroding family values - well, we all have choice don't we? I don't go anywhere near any town on a bank holiday, as the traffic is always horrendous. I agree with Becki's comments - it's people that need to be re-educated about family values, rather than the supermarkets taking advantage of their attitudes. |
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| Jamanda |
Stapletons - My Mum used to work for them (until she fell over a pallet truck, broke her leg and sued them -aaaargh!) |
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| mrutty |
Allow me to help with your guilt. A supplier has a contract to supply xx untis of any one product. They must deliver that amount at the time agreed to the standard agreed. What then happens is that buyers agree to buy the 'extra' that the supplier may have normally at a reduced price. The problem is that the supplier then ensures that they have say twice as much 'spare' next year and then the supermarkets doesn't want it. You then have the back up and uncontracted suppliers (soft fruit is the normal one) where a supermarket asks if they would be interested in sells to the supermarket. No contract is exchanged and the supplier supplies for say 5 years totally at their own risk. Clear when that product is no longer in short supply and no longer need you suddenly find tons of product you can't shift. The last lot are the farms blinded by the £ sign which moan how they were screwed over. They are also the ones that tend to be asked if they would like to supply the BOGOF market. |
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| mrutty |
Where there's blame there's a claim
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| Bovey Belle |
Guilt suitably shed mrutty! | ||||||
| mrutty |
In my experiance the good butchers and fish mongers have survived and found increased custom. The bad ones like that fab national chain of 'family butchers' were nothing more than meat supermarkets buying from a wholeseller and just unwrapped or sliced the meat. Bakers are the same, lots of little baker shops that are nothing more than set of shelves for a large national. Clearly if you do find any that are good then they should be supported but it can not be assumed that because they are on the high street they are anything other than a display shop. |
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| Jamanda |
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| Kathy |
This is on BBC online news today, it's quite a long read but makes you think about the long term effects of supermarkets and the bigger picture.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6454399.stm |
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