| Archive for The Potting Shed A forum to discuss Crafts, Cooking, Gardening, Countryside, Livestock and Pets |
| Cabbagepatch |
TeenagersDoes anyone understand them 
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| Becki |
I usually get on pretty well with them, but I think it's because I still think I am one and I'm definately married to one 
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| mrutty |
It's not my fault you're a cradle snatcher. I'm just sweet sixteen. | ||||
| Cabbagepatch |
Sweet? Sixteen?
You taking some of Lloyd's pills? 
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| Becki |
I hope so are they dangerous?
And it's true he is a source of irritation to millions |
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| lottie |
Plus one
But you love him really - he can make tow ropes. Not many men I know can do that. |
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| lottie |
n understand them don't you n
My sons are now long since past that age - but oh I remember it well. I have a grand daughter going through that stroppy 'not bovvered' age - and she isn't even a teenager yet
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| lloyd |
bl**dy "Yoof".....bl**dy. | ||||
| Cabbagepatch |
do i shout, do i yell, do i sympathise, do i try and talk, do i say nothing, do i do nothing, do i change the locks, do i hug him, do i hit him over the head.........
Going to bed now. |
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| Kathy |
Ignore them, they speak a different language anyway! 
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| Haize |
Well, I distinctly remember my teenage years, and have to admit that I was far too boring to be an annoyance until I was about 17. So I guess I was quite pleasant compared to some! My sister lived in just her bedroom from the age of 13 until she left, I guess I was compensation... | ||||
| nanny-now and forever |
every teenager knows that as the parent, you have your brain surgically removed when your child reaches the age of 11 or 12.............
you don't understand it's not like it was in the olden days things are different now you're so embarrassing when you try to be cool once you understand these concepts and stop trying to be cool or understand you may crack it i found that my son was infuriating 90% of the time, half the time he wouldn't speak to me and thought that i owed him everything and also that his teenage years were when he was going to get his pay out by the time he was 19 he had driven me just one step too far.........i lost my temper at last and had my 6 ft son up against the kitchen cupboards on tip toe where i told him his fortune it was at that point that i realised that it was either him or me and it wasn't going to be me so he had to go and he went it was hard and i cried a lot of tears but even he admits now that i did the right thing though at the time, it broke my heart one day CP it will have to happen |
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| Cabbagepatch |
Nanny, thank you, you have made me feel so much better. | ||||
| lloyd |
Grrrr 
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| Cabbagepatch |
calm calm....... another cider dear?? |
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| lloyd |
I just find it odd that teens don't respond to reason, and they assume that you owe them the living they have, which my wild guess puts at £80.00 per week (if you don't count rent and polltax which probably ends up at another £85.00 per week.. )
And then they can get stropy on top of that, complaining that the milk or juice (that you only bought last night) has run out. GRRRRRR If they have cash for beer, they have cash for juice! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| nanny-now and forever |
oh yes what made me even more angry was that he always had money for fags (rollies or others) but told me he had no money to give me for rent and no money for food and in the end, we had to make him do it i remember throwing his fags in the rayburn one night and locking him out of the house another night......we had endless arguments about "you love adrian more than me mum and he isn't your son or even your husband, he should go and i should stay." he decided after about a year that he would go to uni for a catering course. he thought he would go to norwich or ipswich and live with me but i decided he had to go away he worked hard for a couple of weeks and earned nearly £500 then went to london for a weekend and blew the lot despite knowing that he would be going to university in the spring.....when he left me i had to give him all the spare money i had.....................his father gave him enough money for a phone call............. it took about 4 years before we were even on speaking terms really you have a lot to get through cabbage good luck............... |
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| Leonie2 |
thread split, cabbage and lloyds chooks now in the livestock section
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| lloyd |
Thanks, L. Does that mean I can carry on moaning about tennage aliens then?
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| n |
Mine are driving me up the wall.
Getting worse, not better. n |
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| nanny-now and forever |
everybody with teenagers
breathe in, breathe out don't forget you have the power you just say NO MORE and mean it but i's really, really hard unles you have reached the end of your tether then it will seem natural |
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| lloyd |
If only she was able to Nanny. I'm not allowed to speak my mind.............. | ||||
| mrutty |
Start job the odd army aplication form around the house with their names on it 
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| lloyd |
I'm hearing you brother.
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| Cabbagepatch |
Nanny, I'm hyperventilating 
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| lloyd |
(This is the lad who can do no wrong that we're talking about..... )
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| Libby |
I think my family must be the exception to the rule? I'm not sure if it was by good luck, good management or good breeding ..... I'm not being snobby here, what I mean by this is that I had a very good releationship with my mother and a very, very close relationship to my sister and still do, we still have Christmas together, its the husbands who have to fit in!
My daughters are my best friends, yes there are times they drive me potty but on the whole they are brilliant! Libby |
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| lottie |
I think it is a gender thing Libby.
Us girlies can do no wrong, are 'sugar and spice and all things nice' whereas the Mars lot are not just from another planet, but are 'away with the fairies'. There to be worshipped, pampered idolised, and spoilt
But it usually all turns out right in the end when they venture into the big wide world independently
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| Kathy |
My 4 were all different, and it was with the oldest daughter that I had the most difficulty adjusting to the teenage angst. But I can't say I ever got to the end of my tether, I tended to ignore them most of the time when they got stroppy. My son did have moods but tended to shut himself away in his bedroom, coming out only when he was hungry.
One thing I didn't do was nag about messy bedrooms because it was pointless to get into arguments about messes. I just shut the door on the messes, dirty clothes, smells etc and let them live in a pigsty if they so wished. When they needed clean clothes they had to find them, wash them and iron them. Eventually they realised that it was easier to keep things a bit tidier!! Like Libby, I get on very well with all mine including my son (he's just turned 20) and we are all friends rather than Mother and child. Its easy to fall into the trap of continuing to run about after them after they are old enough to do things for themselves and that is where you start to get arguments "WELL HOW CAN I WASH YOUR CLOTHES IF YOU DON'T PUT THEM IN THE WASHING BASKET. AND IF YOU KEPT YOUR ROOM TIDY I'D BE ABLE TO FIND THEM"..............and so it goes on!! Sorry to ramble on but I see so many of my friends still running about after grownup offspring then getting depressed about all the work they have to do, just seems crazy to me.
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| Becki |
I like that way of doing things, Kathy. Of course It'll be totally different when mine get that age
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| lottie |
I was only blessed with two sons and a 5 year age gap inbetween (Gods plan not mine!)
Like you Kathy, I thought that life was too short for arguments - I just can't do the shouting, arguing thing with anyone - let alone the children. So if the voice of reason and compromise didn't work - I left them too it - so long as they abided by a few house rules. Their mess stayed in their bedrooms, so that I had my 'space' as well as they did. I needed to know where they were going to be (no mobile phones in those days) and they needed to be home at a set time (an agreed time with them) or they had to let me collect them if it was later. Apart from enough mugs under beds to start a penicillin factory which turned up when we ran out of mugs - it went quite well. Clothing allowances were given at start of teens, when it wasn't done to be trawling around the shops with your mother buying clothes. It also stopped the shoe and trainer debacle. The first year No.2. son had his allowance, on the understanding that he had to buy his clothes and shoes and school uniform for the winter, with no additional hand outs from me - so best to buy sensible and good quality so that they lasted. He bought cheap tee shirts, non leather shoes, and trainers, and cheap everything else - and blew the rest on other things. Boy did he suffer. The shoes crippled him after a few weeks, the teeshirts sort of went sideways with the seams all askew and looked rubbish, and he was very fed up indeed. I stuck to my guns - apart from buying another pair of shoes when it looked like he might be permanently crippled but I deducted it from the next clothing allowance.
To this day he only buys clothes once or twice a year, and then gets the best quality that he can and only a few - and they look good for years! Ditto his footware and coats. They had to come with me once a month to do the food shopping en-masse, and if they didn't like what I had in (I did buy things they like of course, but not stuff like cola) or they ate all their favourite things in one week - then they either had to buy their own from any money they earnt or their pocket money or else 'zip it'. They thought I was rather strict at the time, but on my own with a tight budget during their teenage years, I had to make sure they were brought up as decent citizens, didn't go off the rails, treat girlfriends with kindness and respect and could look after themselves if anything happened to me. Thankfully, they now are all of the above, and the hard work paid off. Which it will with all of your teenagers - it is just the independant thing that will be repeated for ever more. I read an article where the author had complained bitterly about the youth of today - uncouth, drunks, blah blah blah all the usual complaints - that are prevalent in this day and age - but when I got to the bottom, it was written in Roman times! Wish I could find the article! History repeating itself |
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| lloyd |
Amazing, that, Lottie! It must be said that Sprout appears to have turned a new leaf(LOL) He now gets up early every morning, goes to bed early each night, enjoys his work, lives a clean and healthy lifestyle, is polite and considerate.......... bl**dy HELL!!!!
Did I just say all that about him? 
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| Libby |
I was a residential social worker when I met my hubby, we married late I was 28 he was 37 we decided to have children straight away.
I can always remember one of the children I worked with saying the best punishment she got from her father was having her head put down the loo and it being flushed. This was because it was instant punishment and didn't drag on forever! That and whether in a childs eye they could see it was fair. Thats how we did it, kept it fair, had extremely firm boundarys which they could bounce off as often as they liked and they never moved! We (hubby and me) made sure we said the same thing. I never once lied to them either, something my parents did to me a lot, but I knew they had! Also if I got something wrong I would say 'I'm sorry, I was wrong' and sort it out. Its been slightly different for us cos of Tori's aspergers, we had a tough time from aged 2 to 11 because no one would believe anything was wrong. When it was eventually diagnosed the reason it had slipped by all the authorities was because we had such a strict routine at home and she was in a small school! I can always remember going on holiday with my sister we had caravans next to one another, she could never understand why my children where in bed at 6.30pm and up at 6.00am even on holiday. We had worked it out that this for us was the easiest option, it saved an awful lot of hassel! Libby |
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| mrutty |
You're not seen strict until you've met me
Alison's kids even think so
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| alison |
and I am strict with mine.
Mark scares me too 
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| nanny-now and forever |
and i was with my son when he was little though i tried also to be fair mr nanny was also fair and a bit of a disciplinarian and his kids turned out ok mine has turned out ok, just took a hell of a long time, nearly 10 years actually but he got there in the end |
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| Kathy |
You know, it's a funny thing with teenagers, I get loads of visiting ones and get on really well with them all yet, when you listen to any of their parents you hear the most horrendous "terrible teen" stories. Is it like the animals in the wild, fighting for supremacy, to become the "alpha" do you think? Most of them turn out ok in the end though. 
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| Cabbagepatch |
definitely kathy, thats how it was with no 1 daughter. she was so critical of me and thought she knew everything. having moved out in july, we get on famously and she keeps coming home! she needed her independence and i needed my home back. i do feel guilty but fledglings have to fly the nest. |
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| Libby |
Its also familiarity breeds contempt!
They know which strings to pull! Libby |
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| lloyd |
Hada long chat with CP's son Chris just now, (don't tell her!)...Told him how impressed with him I was at how he's got his time organised, goes to bed early, ges up early , cycles ten miles a day, doesn't go out on the booze every night..................Also told him how peed off I used to be at him, the way he was.....He gave a MASSIVE grin, said he hated himself too. I then said I would stop before I embarrassed him, and we changed the subject.
Progress I think?...he doesn't say much but his face says a lot.......... (Don't tell CP!) |
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| Cabbagepatch |
You had a conversation
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| Libby |
Well done lloyd. Its so so important to point out the good, its something we often forget becuase we are so busily pointing out the bad!
Libby |
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| Lizzie |
Great stuff I have to say that of all the things I've done in my life, being a step-parent has got to have been the most difficult. I got it wrong so many times, but all seems to be well now that they've all grown up (phew!)
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| lloyd |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4...2tEY&mode=related&search= | ||||
| Cabbagepatch |
Oh dear, after a really good first month at work, no 1 son (sprout) seems to have decided he can't be bothered and hasn't gone to work yesterday or today. He also didn't bother going to college on Thursday. I'm so disappointed - he seemed so much better and now I'm really worried about him again. He spent all of Sunday and Monday in his bedroom, only coming out for food. Surely this isn't right for a healthy 18 year old?
I don't know whether he needs a good shake or a sympathetic ear. I have no intentions of supporting him if he packs it in though. And I also think he needs a few hours in front of the lightbox when it arrives. |
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| mrutty |
The Royal Green Jackets should sort him out. | ||||
| Cabbagepatch |
Got a spare application form hanging about? | ||||
| mrutty |
Army Recuitment office is just down the road from you by the theatre, all three services are there
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| lottie |
Oh dear - it hasn't come to that yet has it? Being a mother of teenagers is the trickiest part of all I found.
Thank goodness they are only teenagers 7 years!
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| Aqui |
I'm scared of reading this thread!
What am I letting myself in for?
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| nanny-now and forever |
actually i think he is behavingjust like a normal 18 year old.............has he a girlfriend? that usually gets them motivated to come out for more than just food he doesn't need the light box cp he needs a kick up the rear end and to be forced to get on with it you could try refusing the food, like i had to do with my son..........he was resentful but then when he realised he would hav to beuy his own food and fags, at least he went and earned some money............. |
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| Cabbagepatch |
Nanny, he had a girlfriend for the last two years all the way through 6th form. They were a lovely sweet couple but I always wondered if it was too soon. Her father has MS and is very very ill with it.,.Recently split up, her decision and now she keeps him dangling with suggestions of evenings out, not sure what she wants...
clearly not helping his state of mind. he met another girl on the train the first night back from his apprentiship, appparantly she is bisexual..... he is a little confused...... at this point i really just want a cigarette!!!!!!!!! |
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| lottie |
Oh my giddy aunt - isn't life complicated these days. Poor lad, no wonder he wants to hide under a duvet in his room.
Not much help to you though is it. My sympathies to both of you. |
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| mrutty |
NORMAL!! I'd trained for my first war by the time I was 18.
Get his sorry a**e over an assault course. Seriously now has he stretched himself yet? I was lucky I'd gone through Scouts, DofE and a rather stange family upbringing (I still think it totally normal to know how to deal with animals and cook them) I could shoot, climb (to a good standard), canoe (to a very good standard), pothole (badly). I'd been very cold and lost on Dartmoor and Black Mountains. All of these things taught me the only way not to die was to get off my fat a**e and do something. Same with work, I do it and lots of it coz then I have a job, which means food and heating. |
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| alison |
Your a**e isn't that fat!
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| mrutty |
That's coz I'm poor having to feed two puppies and can't afford to eat any more
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| alison |
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| lottie |
Just wait until your own children are teenagers
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| lloyd |
At 18 I was worse than him. I contributed bugger all, paid little or no rent, only did jobs round the house when requested to, (finally screamed or shouted at to.................(my fault))
He isn't that bad most of the time, definitely gettng better.
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| lloyd |
MY gOD, HOW HARD CAN THIS BE?......at eight this eve I told him I was turning off the modem at 11pm. I explained that this was to help him, even if it did not immediately appear that way. He accepted this with a grin at the time.
At exactly 11pm, I turned off his line. He promptly came and asked why I hadn't warned him..........................
The long and the short of it is he is downloading stff overnight, so I said that as long as I do not become the facilitator of him leading a virtual existence in his bedroom, and goes to bed, gets up for work, etc, then I will leave it on again. Have to wait and see now. This is a fluid environment. |
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| nanny-now and forever |
now now mark, you were not the normal teenager i fear most teenagers sleep a whole lot during the day when they should be up and then go out and do their thing when the sun goes down..........a nocturnal existence for a year or so and then they sort of come to their senses particularly if you withdraw food and other privilegs like clean laundry.......... it isn't till they have to do stuff for themselves that they realise that there is daylight our there and it is time to get on with life........... |
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| Marton2 |
Re: Teenagers
I ent got a clue What you mean like man, ennit? I can ensure I do not speak like that! |
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| Becki |
I can verify that his family is not normal
It actually dosn't sound like he's that bad. I know that's not very helpful......
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| Cabbagepatch |
i have tried very gently to challenge him this evening about his behaviour. he is now excusing days off of work by saying he is fed up and actually he has seen me staying in bed with depression for weeks on end. so therefore i should understand that he can take a day or two off.
i feel just completely gutted. bad role model, bad mother. i have done the very best i can and now i see him dossing.. lazy git that he is, when i was his age i was in a damp manky bedsit in the pits of bristol. he has no idea, but he is my son, i have brought him up on my own so i think guilt is getting in the way here. |
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| lottie |
They sure know which button to push don't they! Been there, done that, but it all works out in the end - and they turn out loving and lovely.
Hang on in there xx |
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| Becki |
He's old enough to know that's not true. He must understand that being in bed with depression isn't the same as bunking off. Or have I completely mis - understood 18yr olds here?
Trouble is Lottie is right, they do know where to hurt you 
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| Haize |
Is it possible he is actually having a problem with depression?
I'm afraid I've no suggestions to make, sorry
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| Cabbagepatch |
Haize, I've wondered that and suggested that if he feels really down he should see his gp and maybe have a course of antidepressants. He said no he isn't depressed and didn't have any intention of taking tablets.
I'm trying very hard not to let him undermine me but its proving hard this morning. At least he did get up and go to college today. |
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| Cabbagepatch |
Forgot to say, thank you all for listening to my wailings. 
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| Kathy |
CP, not sure if this will help but if any of mine decided to "bunk off" I left them to it. Then they learn the consequences of their actions........failed grades, sacked from job = no money, cr*p job etc. Don't get into a dialogue about why "You've got to do it, or you'll get sacked/fail grades". They want to get into an argument so they can then justify why and, it also gives them the opportunity to point out what they perceive as being your faults so you end up arguing about something totally different.
Hope this makes sense, CP, try and block it out and let him make his own choices.
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| Cabbagepatch |
Thanks for that Kathy, sounds like good advice. Lloyd keeps telling me I shouldn't worry and he's not my problem. I need to learn to let go and let him make his own decisions. As long as he realises that if he gets the sack I'm not feeding him
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| Becki |
I think it's a good idea. | ||||
| Libby |
Has anyone seen that super nanny programme????
she writes out a plan/routine so why not alter it to suit your family, all sit down round the table with a large piece of paper and agree and write ground rules for example £10 £5 or what ever towards food or rent or whatever you wish to call it, if doesn't go to college/work no internet, tell him what you are prepared to pay for and what you most definately are not, treat him like an adult/lodger/or whatever it takes to get the message across just a few ideas to get your ideas rolling. Often when its written down in black and white and he has specific responsibility for .... whatever, it works I tried something similar to this when I felt the girls where not pulling their weight, it gave them a chance to have a 'beef' at me and Mark for things we did that annoyed them so we had to make changes too, which I think helped!! hope this helps L |
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| nanny-now and forever |
my son used to turn it around
"i didn't want you to leave dad and now you have and i'm upset" etc etc, then he played me and his father off against each other then he would get a job and blow all themoney knowing that he needed money for something important i felt terribly guilty, it began to get between mr nany and me and i decided i wasn't having it so he had to go but even then we both tried to help him and found him a university course and accommodation etc and he still threw it back at us so in the end he had to go on his own and do it - even then i gave him £50 when his father gave him nothing but the price of a phone call...............i felt terrible for weeks afterwards but you may have to harden up and do that as well if he carries on..... sometimes yo have to be cruel to be kind.......... |
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| lloyd |
Tonight is tricky night, lots of bad vibes in the house.......Gota be done though. Watched cr*p tv and going to bed now, (he has been in bedroom all night sulking, after his earlier repeat squabble with CP.)
I remain convinced that if we treat him fairly and right then he wil re emerge a human being after. Made CP snuggle on the sofa and relax tonight with the dogs on the sofa.................... Sprout has no internet access tonight...sulking in his room, won't come and ask..would rather bully his mother to get her to make me bend my rule.......... Tghis is my only level of contrl over him and frankly, the only one I want. But I have it.......When he treats her like sh*t, he gets no internet......period. He was born yesterday .........I wasn't........................... |
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| lottie |
It is so tough when they go through the phase.
And they do talk to you as though you do not have a clue about life or anything don't they? And as though you are an idiot/mean/etc etc. The worst thing they throw at you is the inevitable temper tantrum when the can't get their own way or feel they have lost and argument. 'I HATE YOU' crash, bang, wallop go all the doors. You feel sick, weak, and helpless, particularly if you are on your own. But whatever insults they throw at you, they do love you, and it is 'not really them' talking or shouting - but the monster phase. It passes Not nice for you to be going through, hope it gets better soon |
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| nanny-now and forever |
hope things were ok last night cp
i am so glad i am not going through what you are now it was exhausting and heat breaking and there seemed no end to it it is at this point that someone ususally says: "Bring back national service." |
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| Cabbagepatch |
I think that was mrutty!!! |
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| Becki |
How is it all going? | ||||
| lloyd |
Erm...........Okay as long as you ask nothing of him. In that circumstance he is lovely.
Ask anything of him though...............prepare for war. Think its hormonal. |
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| Becki |
I think that's normal, i'm afraid
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| Cabbagepatch |
I'm retiring to my bed!!! | ||||
| lloyd |
Hm, Sorry Becki, nothing to add to that really. | ||||
| Cabbagepatch |
Sorry to confuse anyone, but I've deleted my original post as I think its just too serious and depressing to leave. | ||||
| lloyd |
And it will be. | ||||
| Becki |
Oh dear. I'm sure it will be fine. I said it all the time to my mum when I was a teenager. Do you think he would talk to a professional about it?
Thinking of you *hugs* 
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| Cabbagepatch |
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| redwillowrose |
I`m on my second lot of teenagers ! My first 2 daughters are now aged 35 and 32, and I also have a 15 yr old daughter and a 14 yr old son LOL
lYN |
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| Libby |
CP I wonder if he is actually suffering with depression? Why not tell him how worried you are and how much he means to you through the good and bad. Would he go and talk to the doctor if he won't talk to you!
Giving him an option to talk to you & lloyd or the doctor as you think his hibernation has gone on long enough!!! Definately don't sweep this under the carpet! If its a definate no no to see the doc, you go and see him and ask what you should do? I went through this September 2005 with Tori, who is still under the physchiatrist. It is worth the grief and hassel they give you, to see them come back! Hugs to you Libby |
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| Libby |
How are things going CP & Lloyd? | ||||
| Cabbagepatch |
Thank you for asking Libby
Actually not wanting to count any chickens so to speak, but much better. He is now going to work, going out with his mates, driving Lloyd mad with weekend sleepovers etc etc etc. Now, when little tots have sleepovers, that's one thing, when great big hairy teenagers have sleepovers.....the hall vanishes under a mountain of the most enormous trainers and shoes, the house pongs of beer and the music.........well.........what can I say   .
However, none of that matters at all, it is just such a relief that he seems to be back in the land of the living again. And, long may it continue
I'm probably soft in the head, but when my brood is happy, then so am I. |
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| Libby |
I know the feeling! I'm like that. if their happy then so am I!
It says alot about you and Lloyd if he's happy to bring all his mates round! Long may it continue
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| TheGirlsMum |
Exactly what I would have said Libby. If he brings his mates home he is happy with his home and you. Must admit I am dreading teenage years with the girls but hopefully we will still all be here for me to consult you. | ||||
| lottie |
Great news CP
When my sons had mates around - on a daily basis - and sleepovers (sometimes I couldn't see the lounge carpet for bodies) my sons used to tell their matees to leave the trainers in the porch - when we had one, then out the back door under a box - when we moved and didn't. A house full of 'almost' men, piles of dirty mugs to wash - but when it got a bit much, I used to consol myself that I would rather have a house full of them, so I know what they are up to and where they are, than an empty house and worrying myself sick regarding their whereabouts. The used to have to bring some food - a pack of sausages or whatever and they ate so much, I couldn't afford to feed them all the time - they didn't mind at all - and ended up bring loaves of bread, burgers, and cooking it themselves. I soon invested in a dishwasher though! It does pay off CP, honestly - you don't have the drink, drugs, getting into bad company worries, if they feel they can 'be at home' with their mates. And those friends will really respect you too - and your house rules. They like a rule or two - makes them feel wanted and noticed.
Mind you the six footers that used to cover my floor were hardly unoticeable! |
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| Cabbagepatch |
They do their drinking indoors rather than out, I don't have a problem with that, as you say, we know what they are up to 
And, houserules, well I can only do my best
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| lottie |
I know, I know
When you get older you will have lots to look back on - and can remind your children of these times - and you will all laugh - honestly! |
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| lloyd |
[quote="lottie"]
Hm...Ho Ho bl**dy Ho!
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| lottie |
Hm...Ho Ho bl**dy Ho! [/quote]
Hello Lloyd - as you are now a daddy, are you practising playing Father Christmas??? You are naughty - you have to say Ho Ho doughnut Ho!
Can't teach the young ones naughty words when they are on a sleep over - they will go home and tell their folks
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| lloyd |
Except that these young people are not children. They are all over 18, all mature adults............ | ||||
| lloyd |
God I feel old! | ||||